Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Football

Not to be confused with Wikipedia talk:WikiProject American football, Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Australian rules football, or Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Canadian football.

[Seasons] in English football articles

I've been looking at the recent few season articles, e.g. 2023–24 in English football with the sections "Managerial changes". The only changes included in there are just for the teams eligible for the EFL Cup, Because English women's football clubs are also in these articles and some of them have had managerial changes as well, I think it would make sense to have those changes on the appropriate article since coverage gets increasingly popular. Same could be said with retirements for the same reason regarding popularity. Thoughts? Iggy (Swan) (Contribs) 21:01, 20 May 2024 (UTC)

Seconded, I see no reason why women's players and coaches shouldn't be listed in these sections. Macosal (talk) 12:26, 24 May 2024 (UTC)

why do we even list managerial changes? We don't mention all other transfers, we don't mention ownership changes or the like. It all seems a bit WP:INDISCRIMINATE to me. Lee Vilenski ^{(talk • contribs)} 12:42, 24 May 2024 (UTC)

@Lee Vilenski makes a good point. Managerial changes are not as significant as the team's performances during the season. Also relevant information can be found in the respective division season articles, placing them on the English football season articles can be too large, which is likely with all the transfers in a season. Iggy (Swan) (Contribs) 16:52, 24 May 2024 (UTC)

I've got to say, the retirement and deaths section also seems pretty arbritrary. Asamoah Gyan is listed in the English football retirement because he played two seasons in English football. We aren't the "recent deaths" section. Lee Vilenski ^{(talk • contribs)} 17:25, 24 May 2024 (UTC)

Match report discussion style

Per this discussion on WikiProject Football, it appears to be the best course of action to edit match report external links to full cited templates because of WP:LINKROT. I have made a WP:BOTREQ to apply this to other pages, but it seems further consensus is required. Feel free to leave comments about this here, whether opposing or supporting this argument. Pinging @Stevie fae Scotland as they have been implementing this in some pages. Yoblyblob (Talk) :) 01:02, 23 May 2024 (UTC)

We bit surprised at that. The policy is reasonably clear and it wouldn't be policy if it wasn't consensus. Thanks for bringing this up though, hopefully a few more weigh in and express their views and you can progress with the request. Stevie fae Scotland (talk) 13:04, 24 May 2024 (UTC)

Hi Stevie. What is the policy that you are referring too? I didn't know we had one for match reports. Lee Vilenski ^{(talk • contribs)} 13:08, 24 May 2024 (UTC)

It's not specific to match reports, it's the same as the policy for every reference. Yoblyblob has linked to the policy on linkrot which impacts bare urls, the format that many of the match reports are included in articles. WP:CITE is also applicable. Stevie fae Scotland (talk) 13:20, 24 May 2024 (UTC)

Oh, sorry. I thought you were implying there was a policy against making this change.

I agree these should be reference style. Lee Vilenski ^{(talk • contribs)} 13:26, 24 May 2024 (UTC)

Runners-up as honors?

Having observed several additions and reversions of runner-up finishes in Atalanta BC#Honours (page history), I wanted to ask what the consensus is for their inclusion. My impression is that they are included for historically less titled clubs (since second-place finishes are still a big deal for such clubs) but not for clubs used to domestic or international success. Even so, I'm not sure where the line is drawn. ^Complex/_Rational 14:19, 24 May 2024 (UTC)

I think it depends on if you get something for it. Is it an honour to finish second when there's no medals? We (I think) classify play-off finals where you win a cup as an honour, so I think the same logic goes for second places. Lee Vilenski ^{(talk • contribs)} 14:32, 24 May 2024 (UTC)

second place gives medal, tho?Muur (talk) 05:10, 28 May 2024 (UTC)

AFC Cup

Please can someone help me on AFC Cup page. The tournament has been renamed to AFC Champions League Two (see here) and I have made a request for the page title to be moved to AFC Champions League Two. However, User:MMMM97 is continually moving the page to incorrect names like "AFC Champions League (2)" and "AFC Champions League two" rather than waiting for it to be moved properly. I have informed them to stop doing this on both their own talk page and my talk page but they will not listen. Hashim-afc (talk) 20:11, 24 May 2024 (UTC)

Unfortunately due to these persistent page moves from User:MMMM97, the page move request from AFC Cup to AFC Champions League Two is now listed as a malformed request as per Wikipedia:Requested moves#Malformed requests, as User:MMMM97 has now decided to move the page to AFC Champions League -2 for some unknown reason. If someone who is more experienced with page moves can help me to get this page moved properly, that would be much appreciated. Hashim-afc (talk) 20:41, 24 May 2024 (UTC)

Looks like the page move request has gone through now, although we will have to deal with the ridiculous page title of AFC Champions League -2 (minus two?) until the move is done. Hashim-afc (talk) 21:31, 24 May 2024 (UTC)

Now need to follow due process, unless these moves are construed as vandalism, which this forum can likely assist with. I note that both @Hashim-afc: and @MMMM97: appear to have broken WP:3RR during the course of mutliple edits and reverts to multiple articles over the past several hours. Matilda Maniac (talk) 22:39, 24 May 2024 (UTC)

As well as moving the AFC Cup page during the move discussion which is not allowed per notice made by RMCD bot so the latter who was pinged above was also warned about this. Iggy (Swan) (Contribs) 06:29, 25 May 2024 (UTC)

@Matilda Maniac: @Iggy the Swan: Someone else has moved the page again, now it's at AFC Champions League ‌Two (no, not "AFC Champions League Two" which is still a redirect, but "AFC Champions League %E2%80%8CTwo"). It's becoming a mess now. Hashim-afc (talk) 13:43, 25 May 2024 (UTC)

I have reverted the move and now fully protected the page from being moved again (I hope...) GiantSnowman 13:46, 25 May 2024 (UTC)

I've also deleted all the nonsense redirects as well. GiantSnowman 13:57, 25 May 2024 (UTC)

Glad to see the article and talk page affected has gone back whence they came. Iggy (Swan) (Contribs) 16:35, 25 May 2024 (UTC)

Summer football transfers

A polite reminder - in the English system, contracts end on 30 June (so 'released' players leave clubs on that date) and begin on 1 July (so 'released' players join new clubs on that date). The transfer window will open on 14 June (per this) for other transfers.

In Scotland, I think it is 31 May / 1 June for 'released' players leaving/joining, respectively. GiantSnowman 10:06, 25 May 2024 (UTC)

Vincent Kompany

I'm on three reverts so would someone mind reverting the latest unsourced/premature addition to Vincent Kompany? Thanks. Mattythewhite (talk) 15:32, 25 May 2024 (UTC)

Reverted, warned, and I've upped the protection to 'admin only' as the disruption has been ongoing for a few days. GiantSnowman 15:34, 25 May 2024 (UTC)

Alex Calvo-Garcia

Good afternoon,

i don't feel like this player's name should be hyphenated, but maybe i could be in the wrong there! What i do know for sure is that "García" carries an accent, i tried to move the page but was not allowed.

Can anyone fix that? Attentively, continue the good work everyone RevampedEditor (talk) 17:44, 25 May 2024 (UTC)

Seemingly known as 'Calvo-Garcia' in England, but happy with a move to Alex Calvo-García? GiantSnowman 18:26, 25 May 2024 (UTC)

@GiantSnowman: Indeed, that would be a great move! If you can accommodate... --RevampedEditor (talk) 19:22, 25 May 2024 (UTC)

 Done. GiantSnowman 19:26, 25 May 2024 (UTC)

Talk:Mason Greenwood

If an admin could look at the talk page, I couldn't care less about what people say about Greenwood but some IP has randomly decided to name a vulnerable woman with a right to privacy. Please can this be revdeled Unknown Temptation (talk) 20:25, 26 May 2024 (UTC)

I have done so, as they continued to post it, I've also page protected the talk page in lieu of a block for two days. I have to logout now, but please let an admin know if it continues or has any additional issues. Lee Vilenski ^{(talk • contribs)} 21:54, 26 May 2024 (UTC)

This issue is now continuing in this exact talk page section. Iggy (Swan) (Contribs) 06:43, 28 May 2024 (UTC)

Think this needs admin interference and probably a block GiantSnowman. --SuperJew (talk) 06:45, 28 May 2024 (UTC)

I have blocked the IP making these edits this morning -- ChrisTheDude (talk) 07:54, 28 May 2024 (UTC)

I've protected this page to prevent further disruption. If it happens again elsewhere, just report it directly to WP:OVERSIGHT. Sir Sputnik (talk) 14:39, 28 May 2024 (UTC)

Use of RSSSF to establish notability.

For a long time on Wikipedia, RSSSF has been used as source; there is nothing wrong with that, it is reliable by almost all standards. The problem I have seen is that there are a massive number of season pages that exclusively use RSSSF as a single source- and these pages are not tagged with the single source marking, and get by page reviews quickly due to page reviewers seemingly viewing these as acceptable. Examples include nearly every page of the São Tomé and Príncipe Championship, DPR Korea Premier Football League (which has non-substantive articles such as 1985 DPR Korea Football League, and the rest of the 80s, alongside the 90s), all of the Tonga Major League seasons, and many others. These pages are unfit for inclusion on Wikipedia, and I was looking for comment on the best way to deal with them.
It is my personal opinion that each page that exclusively uses RSSSF should be removed, or at least merged into a larger article if sources can be found to establish that. Interested to hear other thoughts, thanks! Yoblyblob (Talk) :) 02:53, 27 May 2024 (UTC)

Often, something is better than nothing. There will be other sources which will help establish notability for some, if not all, of these articles so it would perhaps be more useful to look for them and improve the articles. If they are genuinely not notable, take them to WP:AfD. Stevie fae Scotland (talk) 09:22, 27 May 2024 (UTC)

Regarding my recent two discussions

I am recreating my recent two discussions for a better debate, this time combined, as I think the first parts of both discussions above were not discussed slightly further enough, while the second might be duplicated from the first except it was about managers with known playing career.

• Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Football/Archive 165#References on Football Players with Senior NT Appearances
• Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Football/Archive 165#Manager articles

Regarding the first discussion, apart from using match reports and being unreferenced as problems, I have seen some of them not clarified. I mean... Despite their senior international career being stated on infobox, on the article itself, there is no clear statement like "Having represented various youth teams, [Name] debuted for [national team] in a friendly match against [opponent]." but rather stating short fact like being called up (e.g. "In [Year]/On [full date], [Name] was called up for matches against [Country opponent 1] and [Country opponent 2] at the UEFA Nations League.") or simply left not added.

I also want to add that, apart from being external links, database sources (EU-football-info, Soccerway, WorldFootball, etc.) only should be used to reference career statistics.

Clara A. Djalim (talk) 09:53, 27 May 2024 (UTC)

"I also want to add that, apart from being external links, database sources (EU-football-info, Soccerway, WorldFootball, etc.) only should be used for to reference career statistics" - says who? GiantSnowman 10:47, 27 May 2024 (UTC)

I would agree with the OP. I see things like "XYZ scored his first career goal on Date against Team"(ref)boxscore(ref). The boxscore simply says he scored, says nothing about it being a debut/first goal/etc. Reference should be something that specifically mentions the fact, which a boxscore does not. RedPatch (talk) 13:03, 27 May 2024 (UTC)

That is not what the OP said though. GiantSnowman 13:16, 27 May 2024 (UTC)

She referenced his original posts, which did mention that. Ie. Kylian Mbappe Ref 178 (On 31 August 2017, Mbappé scored his first senior international goal in a 2018 World Cup qualification match against the Netherlands [ref looks to be a boxscore - its not opening for me right now though].. RedPatch (talk) 13:30, 27 May 2024 (UTC)

Editors do the same with match reports though - John Smith scored his first goal on 1 January, here's a BBC report simply saying he played and scored, nothing about it being 'first'. GiantSnowman 13:46, 27 May 2024 (UTC)

I don't believe those should be used either, unless it's specifically stated in the article/report. Some reports will mention it, some won't. If it isn't, it should be used IMO RedPatch (talk) 13:51, 27 May 2024 (UTC)

Fully agreed - that's a basic tenet of sourcing. However, I still have issue with the OP's broad statement that "database sources [...] only should be used for to reference career statistics". GiantSnowman 13:52, 27 May 2024 (UTC)

@RedPatch: What does OP mean? I am a girl and not a boy. Clara A. Djalim (talk) 10:16, 28 May 2024 (UTC)

Sorry about that. I fixed my post. OP means Original Post. RedPatch (talk) 11:33, 28 May 2024 (UTC)

• @GiantSnowman: That is not what the OP said, though. Oh, I meant to say what RedPatch initially replied with! Clara A. Djalim (talk) 10:10, 29 May 2024 (UTC)

Pele's International Goals

I'm planning to rewrite and tidy up List of international goals scored by Pelé in hopes of getting it to FL status. Both the list and the main article state that he scored 77 goals in 92 appearances. However, this includes a match played on 6 November 1968 (in which he did not score) against the 'rest of the world', which FIFA does not recognise (see the match here, the note at the bottom here and this article). Should I stick with 77 goals in 92 appearances or use the official FIFA data of 77 in 91? Sgubaldo (talk) 13:19, 27 May 2024 (UTC)

If he didn't score, it probably doesn't matter. If you do include it, as long as you explain that the match is considered unofficial, it'll be fine. Stevie fae Scotland (talk) 13:26, 27 May 2024 (UTC)

If the Brazilian Football Confederation recognize the match as official, then it should be counted. The CBF decides how caps are awarded, not FIFA. S.A. Julio (talk) 14:43, 27 May 2024 (UTC)

In that case, I'll add a note to the main article as well. Sgubaldo (talk) 20:12, 27 May 2024 (UTC)

Added. Sgubaldo (talk) 23:20, 27 May 2024 (UTC)

New national team

Uruguayan Football Association created a new national team in April which will only include players from Uruguayan leagues. As per the federation, it is a new project and not the usual Uruguay senior team. Their sporting director confirmed the same. This team is about to play its first match this week against Costa Rica (who are expected to field their normal senior team).

Anyway, this national team is called as Selección del Medio Local by the Uruguayan federation. How should we name this team in English? These are few options I thought of:

1) Uruguay national football B team (like England B, France B etc.)

2) Uruguay A' national football team (like Algeria A' and Nigeria A' which are local national teams of those countries)

3) Uruguay League XI national football team (like Denmark League XI)

4) Uruguay local national football team

Since I am not sure about the name and WP:GNG, it is currently located at Draft:Uruguay A' national football team. Your suggestions and comments are welcome. Kokoeist (talk) 18:33, 27 May 2024 (UTC)

See Category:National A' association football teams, although I'm not sure that a separate article for any of these countries is needed. As far as I am aware, full caps are awarded when they play, it is simply a decision by the FA to only play local players (e.g. for African Nations Championship). GiantSnowman 18:40, 27 May 2024 (UTC)

sounds like it technically still counts as the official team, and could tank their rankings etc. shuld prob just count as actual first team matches.Muur (talk) 05:08, 28 May 2024 (UTC)

Statements in the link above ('confirmed the same') indicate pretty strongly that it is not the full team, particularly that there is no requirement to release the players and a few club coaches said they wouldn't do so. It is not clarified whether Uruguay or Costa Rica's ranking points will be affected, or if either nation will award caps. It would maybe be better to wait til this match is played to determine the exact status of this team; often there are better sources after the fact. Would be interesting if other countries started doing this too (and easier to group them together on the site)... Crowsus (talk) 08:42, 28 May 2024 (UTC)

appearances for nigeria a and algeria a count as full international caps. though based on them being outside the fifa calender and what not, they may count as unofficial fifa matches.Muur (talk) 00:26, 30 May 2024 (UTC)

Paul Evans (football manager)

The article isn't very clear, but is the former Burton Albion goalkeeper and Neil Warnock's assistant the same person who played for Sheffield Wednesday and Mansfield Town in the Football League (making 6 appearances for the latter)? The Mansfield stint in the infobox was added by an IP over a decade ago without a source, so I'm unsure whether it's correct. Also, according to Warnock in a press conference last year, Evans had died a week earlier. Any help would be appreciated. S.A. Julio (talk) 04:29, 28 May 2024 (UTC) ..

The article "Evans gets a new role" from when Warnock joined Notts County, mentions that Evans had played for Boston FC and Mansfield Town. Hack (talk) 00:23, 30 May 2024 (UTC)

Career statistics - qualifying tournaments for cups

Today I have added some notes for Ernst Wilimowski in his career statistics regarding the goals and number of games in the German Cup, as these high numbers in the National Cup column give a wrong impression.

The high numbers are due to the fact that the statistics include regional preliminary qualifying tournaments, not recognized as official games by the German Football Association (DFB) for the German Cup, to select the regional Reichsgau representatives in that time. Even though I have included the explanations in the notes, actually, in my opinion, such qualifying tournaments have no good evidence for goals of players, such as match reports to back it up, and the numbers used in the career statistics for these qualifying tournaments are closer to WP:OR calculated from other sources like this: https://docs.ufpr.br/~mmsabino/sstatistics/willimowski.html or https://www.rsssf.org/players/pwillimowskidata.html.

My question is whether there is any further consensus beyond this information here WP:WPFCONSENSUS#Statistics and WP:FOOTY/Players#Career statistics, if such matches/goals in qualifying tournaments for club competitions, besides UEFA Qualifying rounds, should be or should be not included in the player career statistics. Miria~01 (talk) 17:58, 28 May 2024 (UTC)

I mean fa cup (English) qualifying rounds are official matches. Muur (talk) 12:24, 30 May 2024 (UTC)

Thanks for the info, this is indeed the case in the FA Cup, I didn't know that because almost all sources (worldfootball.net, sky, BBC etc.) leave out the qualifying rounds for the FA top scorers without mentioning it. But the the FA is clear in that:
Jonathan ‘JJ’ Lacey was officially crowned as the top scorer of the 2023/24, The FA, 28 May 2024

However, it is a different case for the in the German Cup and even now in the modern time, since 1952, when the German Football Association (DFB) revived the national cup for West Germany, the remaining slots for amateur teams or from clubs from lower tier leagues are given to the cup winners of the regional football associations, the Verbandspokale. And these matches and goals, in that different competitions, of course do not count towards the German Cup.

But I realize from the different approach by the FA for the FA Cup, that a note, as it is now, is probably better in the career statistics table to explain, if added games and goals in qualification formats are not official recognized by the governing body to belong to the actual competition. Miria~01 (talk) 13:54, 30 May 2024 (UTC)

Moses Swaibu

Moses Swaibu could use more eyes. In the past week two IPs, likely the same person, have removed reliably sourced content and added poorly sourced content. Per WP:DUE, I think it would be fair to update the article to mention Swaibu's activity since going to prison, using articles from The Athletic [1] and The Guardian [2]. Robby.is.on (talk) 10:08, 29 May 2024 (UTC)

Timo Werner loan spells?

Should we be adding two loan spells for Timo in the infobox and stats? [3] Govvy (talk) 11:57, 29 May 2024 (UTC)

I personally would just leave it as one since it got extended before his current deal expired. Ortizesp (talk) 21:26, 29 May 2024 (UTC)

"I'm 100% Welsh"

The Gethin Jones (soccer, born 1995) article says that he told the Bolton Wanderers match programme that "I'm 100% Welsh". Does anyone happen to have the programme in question to confirm that this is an accurate quote? Hack (talk) 01:02, 30 May 2024 (UTC)

The dude who's playing right now for the Socceroos? Seems he isn't as Welsh as he thought hahaha. On a more serious note, I think the quote can be taken out - I don't think it adds much if at all. --SuperJew (talk) 07:53, 30 May 2024 (UTC)

I used to have that one, but don't any more. In that season, they sent out free matchday programs to all season ticket holders as part of the fact we couldn't go due to covid and I do remember this quote. Also to note, I'm not the one who added the quote. I don't have them though, they were digital match day programmes and after reading them I'd always delete the email. Based on looking up, it seems to be from the one against tranmere which someone is selling here [4] (didnt even know they sold physical ones that year, but turns out they did which feels pointless as all season ticket holders got free digital versions anyway) but yeah, jones has done the standard "im not good enough for the country i care about so will play for one who wants me" like all those guys who are english that play for lesser national teams just so they can play internationals. he will still consider himself 100% welsh I imagine and just played for the kangaroos because it gets him international football. tho there's no sourcing for this stuff, from what i hear his parents were in austraila at the time on expired work visas and left because they were deported when jones was a few years old and didnt return for 2 decades and just did cuz of his football career.Muur (talk) 12:35, 30 May 2024 (UTC)

The only online version with this quote I found was Reddit but I think there is a problem, user generated content.

I should think the page move to the current title seems right as he plays with the Socceroos now. Iggy (Swan) (Contribs) 12:49, 30 May 2024 (UTC)

i actually mentioned that here (whether we should change him to soccer) after his international debut, and consensus was to keep him at football as the first 20 years of his career he was a welsh footballer and he still said football in his interviews for Australia and as such is a footballer not a soccer player. some other players using the same reasoning were shown with a link to Scott Arfield whos listed as a footballer due to 95% of his career being in england. that being Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Football/Archive_164#Gethin_Jones_(footballer,_born_1995) here so it should probably be moved bac to the original name. seems someones changed arfield to soccer since wihtout permission i guess?Muur (talk) 12:53, 30 May 2024 (UTC)

"100% Welsh" might be a factual description of his heritage, rather than his own identification/feelings? As SuperJew says, he chose to play for Australia anyway... GiantSnowman 18:33, 30 May 2024 (UTC)

Do you feel the quote adds anything or is it unneeded in the article? --SuperJew (talk) 18:43, 30 May 2024 (UTC)

Given it's unsourced, it's an easy one - remove it. GiantSnowman 18:46, 30 May 2024 (UTC)

It’s not unsourced, just need to get the program. Muur (talk) 19:26, 30 May 2024 (UTC)

I'm asking regardless of the sourcing. If the consensus is that it doesn't add (as I think), then no need to bother trying to look for the sourcing. --SuperJew (talk) 19:38, 30 May 2024 (UTC)

don't worry mate, we don't really want him either ;) --SuperJew (talk) 18:30, 30 May 2024 (UTC)

Default sort for clubs

Why are AFC Bournemouth sorted by "AFC" and not by "Bournemouth"? The "AFC" or "FC" is a prefix or suffix that the vast majority of clubs have, it isn't in the main part of the name and it doesn't seem useful for sorting, as you just end up with all the "AFC..." clubs sorted together. Similarly, to have AFC Wimbledon and Wimbledon FC sorted at either end of the alphabet doesn't make sense, it is logical that they should be together (not because the clubs share any kind of relationship but because they both have the name Wimbledon). Do we have a guideline on how to sort clubs? Or is it that the complexity of handling potentially different formats of club names just makes it easier to sort every club by its full name? --Jameboy (talk) 10:55, 30 May 2024 (UTC)

There isn't even consistency as AFC Blackpool is set to default sort under B..... -- ChrisTheDude (talk) 11:06, 30 May 2024 (UTC)

I would say sort without standard prefixes (such as FC/AFC/SC) --SuperJew (talk) 11:40, 30 May 2024 (UTC)

Well, it does seem to be in their team name. That’s why Bournemouth start the season above arsenal in the official pl table. Muur (talk) 12:18, 30 May 2024 (UTC)

There is also a Bournemouth FC, so I guess to prevent ambiguity, the sorting with prefixes might be needed. Though it is unlikely any time within the next few years both Bournemouth football clubs will play against each other in the league. And since AFC Bournemouth were promoted back, they are listed below Arsenal and Aston Villa when it comes to the list of teams alphabetically, as well as the current league table in 2024–25 Premier League. Iggy (Swan) (Contribs) 12:42, 30 May 2024 (UTC)

seems the prremier league does indeed list them below arsenal and villa on the official tables (i looked at historic tables via the wayback machine for when everyone played 0 matches). which is funny as i remmeber an interview where tehy said they named themselves afc bournemouth to be the first team in the tables listed above arsenal. the championship table site only goes to august 2023 on the wayback machine so im not sure what the url was before that to see how the efl lsited them in their last championship season.Muur (talk) 12:50, 30 May 2024 (UTC)

I vaguely remember that we've had this conversation before, and it was agreed to sort using "AFC", but it was a while ago and I could be wrong ... Black Kite (talk) 13:39, 30 May 2024 (UTC)

Personally, I don't think we should be sorting on the suffix. There are a lot of European teams with FC or FK at the start and I think it would make it more difficult for readers to find what they are looking for if they are all sorted under F. I think readers would find it more useful if Bournemouth/Wimbledon/Halifax Town were sorted under Bournemouth, Wimbledon and Halifax Town respectively rather than FC or AFC even when the suffix is necessary for disambiguation. Stevie fae Scotland (talk) 17:38, 30 May 2024 (UTC)

I agree - this should be 'B' for 'Bournemouth'. GiantSnowman 17:57, 30 May 2024 (UTC)